Dr. Natalie Rogers
Interview
with Dr. Natalie Rogers©, page 3 of 3
Natalie
(continued):
I’ve just facilitated a very interesting workshop called Earth,
Art and Spirit. In this workshop we were connecting into nature,
-- trees, plants and animals -- knowing that we are all One. We
are not just connected to human beings. There’s a statement
by Chief Seattle that I had on my bumper sticker for years which
says, “The Earth does not belong to us. We belong to the Earth”.
That is a beautiful statement. I love it. It is very difficult for
those of us who did not grow up with a Native American belief system
to actually experience this deep connection with the earth and all
creatures. So the Earth, Art, Spirit workshop is to help us connect.
We go into nature, on a mini Vision Quest, communing with a particular
tree or plant that we have chosen. Then we come back to the studio
to create a piece of art using clay, or colour, or collage. Then
we write about our experience. This helps us delve into the deep
personal realm, to connect with all beings.
Lisa:
So you see the sense of play as being really important?
Natalie:
Yes. Play is very important to me, and again, this was part of bringing
all of my life into my workshops. As a young kid I loved to play
dress-up with the neighbourhood kids to create imaginary characters.
When we started person-centred expressive therapy workshops, I brought
dress-up clothes, gorilla masks and witches hats (laughs), military
hats, princess gowns and other costumes. This has become a tradition
in the institute training program that I founded. It delights me
to see our faculty using costumes and role-playing. It gives participants
a chance to play with their dark side, their shadow, and with archetypal
roles. What we learn from allowing ourselves to try on other characters
is tremendous.
As a facilitator there were times when I would gravitate
towards the gorilla mask, or the dark shadowy characters. Moving
around the room I would confront people with this ugly, dark side,
aggressive side in a playful way. I found myself wondering, “What
is going on in me? Do I actually feel angry at people in the group?”As
I thought about it I realized, “No, that’s not it. I am
aware that the participants are being too nice, too sweet, and too
kind. Some feelings are happening here that are not being expressed
or shared. The anger and aggression is going underground. What I
am doing, unconsciously (until now) is to act out, in a playful
way, the feelings that have been stuffed.
As I talked about my process with the participants,
it gave them permission to be that other part of themselves, the
part they had repressed in the group. It gave people permission
to play-act or do expressive arts around their rage, or their fear,
or their sadness
Sometimes we create a “village”. We say, “This is
an imaginary village or a never-never land. You may find a costume
to create whatever character you would like to be. There is only
gibberish in this village, so you will need to relate to people
with gestures and nonsense words.” Amazing scenarios happen
as people experiment with their adopted role. Afterwards we spend
about time talking about what happened. Each person has had an entirely
different experience of this same village drama. We try to figure
out what we have learned about other people and ourselves. Often
fabulous insights come from those archetypal roles. We discovered
that the blind beggar was not so miserable after all. Everyone paid
attention to him and took care of him. One time a very conservative
woman tried being the archetype of a harlot. She said, “Wow!
This is totally the opposite of who I am! I experienced things about
myself that I never knew”. That’s all play ñ deep
play.
Lisa.
Yes, and maybe it brings us to the understanding that we contain
all of the archetypes within us, and we can choose which ones we
want to play with.
Natalie:
Exactly. In my book, The Creative Connection©, I spend
one chapter talking about accepting the shadow, embracing the light.
It is an important topic for my graduate students, as well. The
shadow is the part we have repressed in our lives. Some people have
hidden or denied their ability to love or to allow experiences of
light. Most people do have numinous experiences, or transcendent,
or spiritual experiences. Yet I find that many people are more willing
to talk about the parts of themselves that they don’t like
ñ their lack of self-esteem, or their sense of powerlessness.
They shy away from sharing their inner beauty, or their capacity
to give love or be compassionate. So I try to create an environment
where people can share all aspects of their life experience.
Lisa:
Natalie, your work enables people to connect spontaneously with
their inner creativity. What effects do you see resulting from this?
Natalie:
Well, the first step is self-awareness. The next step is usually
self-understanding and insight. Then there is the crucial step of
self-acceptance ñ accepting all aspects of oneself. This
leads to self-esteem and self-empowerment. Often people say, “This
has changed my whole life”. It is very transformative work.
With a sense of self-esteem and self-empowerment comes new ways
to behave in the world. People find themselves changing careers
-- find themselves doing what they love instead of what they thought
they had to do. They take more interest in the world, paying attention
to world events and becoming active in various ways, because they
realize their connection with the whole world.
There are people who have taken this work to community groups, to
drug and alcohol treatment centers, to elders. Others use the expressive
arts in environmental work, and with children and, of course, in
schools. There are all sorts of ways in which this is being applied.
It is a new field. The understanding of its potential is just beginning
to be felt.
Lisa:
It must be very exciting to see these results, knowing that it’s
expanding, and the ripples will go out further. It’s changing
people’s attitude that is what ultimately changes the world.
Natalie:
Yes, it is. One of the things that I said in my book is that denial
is really our biggest personal and global enemy. Awareness is the
opposite of denial. If we’re in denial about what we’ve
perpetrated, or what is actually happening in the environment, then
we have no way of really changing it. We need to become aware of
the global problems, and talk about our fears, our rage at feeling
powerless, our grief and suffering over personal and world tragedies.
If we deny it, we get into states of depression and passivity. Becoming
aware leads us into our fiery emotions, and people don’t necessarily
want to do that ñ it’s Pandora’s box. But until
we actually open the box, we’re going to act out of a lack
of consciousness. Opening it in a safe, empathic environment will
help us discover self-control and positive ways to be active.
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Lisa:
In The Creative Connection, you talk about the inner critic
and the need for approval as blocks to creativity. How can we release
these blocks and contact the intuitive, creative self?
Natalie:
Well, to be in an environment of acceptance, permissiveness and
support is very helpful, whether that is a one-on-one relationship,
or within a group. That is where the person-centered environment
is so necessary. There are guidelines, which are helpful for releasing
the inner critic, but basically what is helpful is to with people
where you get support for letting go of these blocks.
I tell people that when you hear your inner critic coming up, just
say “Hello. OK, I recognize you. You’re sitting on my
shoulder again, and I need you at times, because the critic is helpful
in my being able to discriminate right from wrong. But I don’t
need you right now. Go away, come back some other time”. Again,
awareness is the first step. We all have that critic popping up,
telling us we don’t know how to do this, or can’t do that.
Each time it revisits, say “I don’t need you now. I want
to travel another path right now”. (Laughs)
Lisa:
When you explore all of the aspects of the creative processes, and
integrate those in a synergistic manner, what effect does it have?
Natalie:
I’m glad you asked that. The aspect that I feel I’m contributing
to the field is really that deep understanding of how one art form
actually nurtures and stimulates another art form. Although a lot
of people focus on one art form in their practice, such as visual
art or movement, they don’t necessarily realize that movement
actually loosens our mind, stirs our spontaneity for writing and
painting. And using colour stimulates our creative writing. Integrating
all of the arts, particularly if we use them in sequence brings
about what I call the creative connection. I believe I’ve added
to the field of creative expression by pointing out this connection.
This hypothesis came to me when I was in Anna Halprin’s dance
training program. I was keeping an art journal ñ —quick
expressive drawings in a small journal. I realized that my art had
changed dramatically after the movement that we’d done every
day. And it never went back to being the same as it was before.
The art expression was much less inhibited, much more from the unconscious.
That’s where I got this clue of the concept that movement actually
changes our visual art. Then when I did the visual art in my journal,
sometimes poetry would come forth spontaneously. I looked at this
process and said, “That’s interesting. The movement and
the art and the writing and the sounding all really feed into each
other.” I have a spiral diagram in my book that explains, visually,
how one art form energizes another expression. I often dance that
diagram when I lecture (laughs). It’s about how we actually
connect to our bodies, to go deeply into our inner truth. When we
discover this inner essence it is like an eternal energy fountain
and it springs forth like arms opening to the Universal truth. When
this happens, it is experienced as connection of the inner world
to the outer world, and the Great Spirit. This is where the transpersonal
aspect of this work comes in.
These concepts have all come out of my own experience. I didn’t
start with a concept and then try to prove it. This also follows
my father’s style of learning —to trust one’s experience.
What I teach or facilitate for others I have learned from my profound
inner work through the arts. It is soul work.
Lisa:
In the chapter in The Creative Connection on Creativity and Consciousness
for the Future, you say “It does mean that if given the proper
environment for growth, each person seeks to find her fullest self”.
You view the emphasis on a broader consciousness as facilitating
global awareness. What results could this have for the shift in
consciousness within humanity as a whole?
Natalie:
Well, I have to keep hope. I do keep hope that there is a growing—I
would like to say spiritual—consciousness in the world. I am
not talking about organized religion or some dogma. There are certainly
many individuals and many authors that are talking about a spiritual
awakening. There are separate groups, and organisations that are
moving toward a consciousness that is respectful of individuals.
They advocate really learning to listen to each other and to use
methods of conflict resolution that are non- violent. There is the
transpersonal movement, and activists for non-violent reform and
liberal religious groups that are looking for constructive ways
to deal with the issues of the world. I long for, and hope for a
world where the emphasis (this is so important to me, and it was
for my Dad too) where we are collaborative and co-operative, rather
than using our personal power to dominate or have power over other
people.
I feel the feminine (Goddess) principle is coming into the world
consciousness ñ very gradually, but it is essential. That
doesn’t just mean women. I mean the feminine principle of allowing
more love and compassion and collaboration, rather than the constant
struggle to dominate and control others. Even our language must
change from the military metaphors ñ a “war” on
drugs and a “war” on crime ñ it is a “fight
mentality” rather than “let’s find out why these
things are happening and address them” mentality. We need to
change our approach. We have a “war on terrorism” rather
than “solving the roots of terrorism”. The whole language
of our culture is so military and masculine.
That is my vision: that we will have a shift in consciousness and
empower ourselves to come the heart.
Lisa:
Yes. And finding that sense of connection with ourselves helps us
to recognize that with other people. It stimulates us to feel that
sense of connection with others when we go right to that source.
Then you can’t see other people as “the enemy” because
you recognize the connection with them.
Natalie:
That’s right. As long as our approach is set at “we”,
and “they” —that we are the good people and they
are the bad people —as long as we hold that duality in our
minds and hearts, there’s not going to be a peaceful world.
That is why I was talking about the shadow side. We have to look
at what we cause, what we perpetrate, as well as how we have the
capacity to heal others and ourselves. The creative process can
play a crucial role. Part of the creative process that I believe
is so important is to envision a future, to hold up an image of
how the world could really work. We seem to be just putting out
fires all the time, because there’s so little envisioning.
We could envision a world where colleagues and nations actually
help each other. Having power to share, rather than to dominate
and control others. And envisioning a world where people really
are equal. So long as our whole world is based on a materialistic
economy, where greed for material things seems to be the motivating
factor, we are in trouble. We need to visualize a different way
-- a world where we get gratification and satisfaction out of being
loving and caring, andgiving to people rather than taking away.
Lisa:
So, Natalie, what does success mean to you?
Natalie:
Well, to tell the truth, I had to do a little thinking about that
question when you said you wanted to ask me about it.
This ties in with all the other things I’ve been saying, because
I feel successful when I’m accepting all aspects of myself
—which includes my grief, my anger, the mistakes I make, the
pain I have caused and the grief over lost relationships. This acceptance
brings me to my ability to love and care. So, in a way, this question
about success ties together everything we have been talking about.
This includes people’s inability to love. I believe that happens
because they have not been able to really accept and love themselves
first.
So it has to do with self-esteem and self-acceptance, leading to
compassion and love for others. I have self-esteem because I grew
up in a family that gave me love and understanding. Of course sometimes
I think I’m pretty foolish or stupid or do dumb things. But
I had the basic nurturing that brought about self-esteem. So I am
able to take pleasure in my own achievements ñ which I find
a lot of people are not. By that, I don’t mean bragging, but
really accepting that what I’ve done is pretty good and has
meaning for me and the world. It is okay to like those things that
you have achieved that have value for you. Some people who have
accomplished great things and have received dozens of awards, may
have very low self-esteem. They may not be able to say, “Yes,
I really value what I did”. I believe creating the kind of
environment for people where they can value themselves is terribly
important.
It is also important to learn from one’s mistakes (laughs).
To be able to say “I really goofed, I really made a mistake”,
and to learn from those events.
For me, success is really a way of being. I feel successful when
I am in balance, and when I feel centered, grounded, compassionate,
and really able to deeply understand other people. It’s like
being intimate on a deep level, whether it’s with a friend,
or with a client, or with a connection to the world. I feel successful
when I am full of light, and when I get this inkling that my spirit
is actually felt by other people. It is an inner warm glow. Success
to me is about the way I am in the world, not about what I have
done.
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