Dr. Natalie Rogers
Interview
with Dr. Natalie Rogers©, page 2 of 3
Lisa:
Yes. And art is such a wonderful way to express your feelings, because
it feels safe. You just allow it to come through, and then you look
at it afterwards and you see what the message is.
Natalie:
Yes, that’s right. It’s what I call “tapping into
the universal unconscious”, or the Great Spirit, or the universal
spirit, depending on what your belief system is. But we have to
find ways for people to tap into their highest or deepest sense
of consciousness: their humanity. I have always found that whenever
we go into our own deepest self, our own inner essence, we connect
to the universal spirit, or to all of humanity.
Lisa:
When we connect with the deep self, we connect with everything and
everyone else, and we realise that there is a web that we are all
woven into.
Natalie:
Yes, exactly. The creative process itself is healing. In many situations,
not just the current world one, I have found that just doing the
art ñ creating a collage, or piece of clay, or a song or
movement that expresses this agony, this despair ñ helps
to heal it. But as time goes on (it may take a day, or weeks, or
months), you move through the next painting, and the next, and eventually
you find a sense of hope, of heart, of caring, of love.
Actually that’s one of the things that happened
in the art that I just created. I ended up with a big yellow heart
with green vines growing through it. I know that through this process
I eventually get into my deepest soul sense, which opens my heart
and brings forth my desire to heal the planet and myself.
Lisa:
That’s right. In one sense, grief is so painful to feel, but
it does pierce your heart ñ it opens you up. And when you’re
actually working with that grief, and expressing it, and starting
to see what can emerge from it, it’s very powerful.
Natalie:
Yes, that’s right. Often on the surface there is all this anger
that begins to be acted out. Revenge, or an eye for an eye. If we
can move beyond that, we realize that the roots of terrorism are
most often because people are poor, oppressed and desperate. This
leads to wanting to eliminate the people who have caused such misery.
As a world community we need to understand these root causes and
deal with them rather than attacking the surface symptoms. It is
a huge challenge. If we don’t use this opportunity for constructive
change there may be no other opportunity.
One of the things I am saying is that the creative process
itself is healing. Also, that personal growth and our higher states
of consciousness are achieved through self-awareness, self-understanding
and insight. These qualities are achieved by delving into the emotions
and feelings. Of course it can be feelings of joy, ecstasy, sensuality,
sexuality ñ all the yummy things (laughs). All of those feelings
are an energy source that can be channelled into the expressive
arts. As you’ve mentioned, often we don’t really understand
what our art is about until we put it out there and look at it.
I ask people to dance their art, or write about it, or have a dialogue
with it. That brings further depth of understanding to the individual.
(continued in next column)
Lisa:
It brings it alive.
Natalie:
Yes. You have the art speak to you. If you have a clay piece, you
ask it, “what message do you have for me?” Or if you have
a colour or shape, or a figure in your drawing or painting, then
you ask, “What do you wish to say to me?”That helps you
to gain insight.
Lisa:
What initially inspired you to use expressive art therapy with your
clients?
Natalie:
Well, I grew up in a very creative, non-judgemental household. As
a child I felt very supported in my creativity, particularly by
my mother, who was an artist. She created the opportunity for both
my brother and me to use art as a way of expressing ourselves. She
was trained as a fine artist, so she gave us some instruction, as
well.
In my 30’s I went to Brandeis University and
got my masters degree under the supervision of Abraham Maslow. He
was very interested in creativity at that time. He supported me
in using expressive art with children. Also, I was very inspired
by Virginia Axline, who at one point was a student of my father’s.
She was a play therapist, and wrote the books, Play Therapy and
Dibs. (A case study.) I watched her do client-centred play therapy
through a one-way mirror when I was a college student, and at home
on vacation. I said to myself, “That’s what I want to
do. I want to become a client-centred play therapist”. So my
master’s thesis was working with children, and helping them
use the arts as self-expression, rather than “teaching”
them art. I asked them to work with their dreams and feelings. Abe
Maslow was helpful in this project.
(to the top of the next column)
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Natalie
(continued):Later
I began my private practice, and was seeing adults. I wanted to
integrate all of the processes that were helpful in my life into
my work with clients. That included movement as well as art. This
was during the ’60s before the term “expressive arts”
was being used. At that time there was traditional, analytic art
therapy. I didn’t know of any humanistic art therapy sources.
I really just experimented with using art as a language between
my clients and me. It was awkward at first, wondering whether they
would be interested in using visual art, like colour, to say what
they were feeling. I knew that as long as I followed the client
centred principles, of respecting the individual for his or her
own interpretation of their art I would be respecting their ability
to understand themselves. (I never interpret people’s art and
I ask my students to honour that practice.) By following these person-centred
principles I knew I wouldn’t be doing anybody any harm. And
that was very true. I discovered by practice that this was very
helpful to clients. There were so many feelings that could not be
expressed in words, but were simply expressed through a few lines,
or gestures. I could really understand the client at a deeper level
by listening to their art, and their movement, and their creative
writing. It was my client’s positive feedback that kept me
learning and trying new ways to encourage their creative expression.
That was the beginning. Then I moved to California and I enrolled
in movement training with Anna Halprin and art therapy training
with Janie Rhyne. I incorporated what I was learning into my very
basic client-centred training that I learned from my father. To
me, what is so important is the person-centred philosophy -- that
each individual has the capacity for self-direction, if given the
proper environment. Carl had a deep trust in the human organism
as being capable of growing itself if we give it the right environment.
I call it “the fertile field theory”. Each person is a
seed. If we create the proper soil, fertilize it, water it, and
nurture it, that person will grow into his or her own potential
ñ whether it’s a redwood tree, a peach tree, a sunflower,
or a cactus plant. (Laughs). But each person will truly come into
his or her own full bloom. Our role is to create the environment
of acceptance, love, permission, and stimulation, to foster creativity.
What my Dad didn’t do was offer materials and experiences that
would allow people to get out of their chairs to engage in something
non-verbal. There was no opportunity to actually experience the
creative process in those groups or in the client-counselor relationship.
You could talk about wanting to be creative, but there was no opportunity
to actually experience the creative process. That’s where I
feel my work has been an expansion of his work (continued)on creativity.
For a while I felt I was being a bit rebellious, (laughs), to take
his work and actually create exercises that would stimulate people
to use art and movement, sound and journal writing for their self-exploration.
I had worked with my father for many years, and taken classes from
him, and knew his philosophy and methods very well. I had incorporated
it into my own way of being. So, to do something a little different
was a difficult process for me at the beginning. Then I realized
I was actually expanding his work into this new realm.
My expressive arts work evolved when I moved from Boston to California,
and asked my Dad if I could work with him. He was delighted, of
course. I quickly designed a ten-day intensive workshop. We asked
six to eight other staff, who then co-created what eventually became
called “The Person-Centred Approach workshops”. Because
of Dad’s tremendous appeal around the world, it was easy to
get a huge crowd for ten days. They were international workshops.
These were very experimental times. The staff probably learned as
much as, or more than, the participants. (Laughs). Day after day,
the large group would sit talking about their lives, telling their
personal stories full of emotional content ñ their tragedies,
confusion, fear, and dilemmas. As staff, we were very good at reflecting
their feelings, and holding the safe space for these very personal
stories. We also knew how to facilitate the confrontations people
had with each other.
However, because Iím such a kinesthetic person, I would
get very restless, and thought “How can we sit here for three
hours in the morning, three hours in the afternoon, and three hours
in the evening?” So I finally said “I have a studio room,
with art materials, and anybody who would like to find other ways
of delving into these personal issues can come and join me. We’ll
experiment with non-verbal ways to talk about all the personal stories
we are sharing, using movement, art and sound.” I had several
colleagues who were also interested in exploring this with me. It
was a wonderful learning laboratory. We created playtimes that were
deeply meaningful to people. We had very few guidelines. We just
kept learning from what we were doing. The way to become a good
facilitator is to constantly get evaluations and feedback from participants,
and ask “What are we learning? What works and doesn’t
work?” Carl advocated that kind of feedback as well. We found
that this ability to play, to use costumes, drama, and role playing
as well as using art materials was very meaningful to people.
Interestingly, neither of my parents were dancers or kinesthetic.
I learn a great deal through “Authentic Movement” work,
or through self-expression through movement. I have felt at times
that my physical body actually experiences a lot of the trauma in
the world. I take it in through my unconscious, and through my pores,
so I really need to express it ñ to stamp, and play the drum,
and shout, or move in graceful, sensual ways. Although most people
in this culture are shy about self-expression through movement,
we have easy games and experiences that help them overcome their
inhibitions.
(continued)
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